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eekdgeek

Ready, Steady, Vent!

Lead

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Posts: 518

(05/22/02 09:06:33)

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EEK: For some reason, your post came up "HTML Comments Not Allowed," so I'm now cutting and pasting Joss' posts that dealt with Amber/Tara back into here in hopes that they'll stay this time. ;-) -- Little Willow

---------------

From UPN.com linear board:

over the gay thing, revisited
Posted by: Joss - May 22, 2002, 2:27 AM
Thought I was out, but.... had one more thing to add. I killed Tara. Some of you may have been hurt by that. It very unlikely it was more painful to you than it was to me. I couldn't even discuss it in story meetings without getting upset, physically. Which is why I knew it was the right thing to do. Because stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay. Willow's story was not about being gay. It was about weakness, addiction, loss... the way life hits you in the gut right when you think you're back on your feet. The course of true love never did run smooth, not on my show. (only Dennis Franz has suffered more than my characters.) I love Amber and she knows it. Eventually, this story will end for all of them. Hers ended sooner.

Or did it......?

Yeah, it did.

---------------

From Bronze Beta:

joss, already says:
(Wed May 22 07:23:10 2002) [Edit/Delete]

So I'm REALLY REALLY going to bed. Two things: I actually wasn't aware of the dead/evil lesbian cliche. I wasn't aware of the 'add a young girl in the fifth season' cliche either. I think I don't get out much.

And Thoin, I'd like to call them Mr Wynn and Mr Kidd, respectively. Sleep now.

j

---------------

Willow and Tara | Willow and Tara's Room

EvyWP

Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 574

(05/22/02 09:11:32)

he killed tara and that make him sick...i like that. We all got very depress and it was a really nice twist for the storie. Sometimes you have to kill the characters that you must love in order to achive greatness....Sucks i agree, but hey.

Now...to think that he could not kill Tara cause she was gay? Thats just not right. What i think must of us thought was that he was killing one of the BEST RELATIONSHIPS ever on tv. It was true, it was real, it has his ups, his downs, it had love and what love is all about. Sacrifices, tears, mistakes, controling Wiccas and forgiving ....lots of that. Trying always to save that love between them that was un-speakable and hard to put on dialogue. Lets face it...it wasnt cause they where gay...it was cause they loved eachother and it was done so well. It sad me to read that from Joss....i expected from him a lil more since he had agree to Tara and Willow, since he created her..... but what can we expect? It was too close to perfect...and such thing seems to not last.

Evy
Tara WannaBlessedBe
"I'm never getting married. Never, never, never."
"Evy, I want your life. Jealous....You have more Amber moments than Amber." Katie - Divine Princess Fuchsia

Which Buffy the Vampire Slayer character are you?

Dark Wyldchilde

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 1722

(05/22/02 09:21:20)

Hush Puppy

Yeah, but the how sucked. Ok he can say he had all the reason in the world, and it's his story so he's correct. It's the fact Giles showed more reaction when he poofed in on a cloud of implausibility then Buffy or Xander did at all.

Even then stocisim was the watch word until the giggle fit. I mean if it was so upsetting to kill her why was Joss the only one besides Willow and Dawn who seemed upset by it?

No, bad writer/producer/demi-god. No biscut!

Maskoman

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 21

(05/22/02 09:37:15)

Buffy and Xander were upset by it, they were just more concerned about not losing a second friend who could be saved rather than dote on one that they couldnt.

Your friendly neighborhood

Maskoman

Dark Wyldchilde

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 1722

(05/22/02 09:39:10)

Hush Puppy

It's arguable. What isn't is the fact they couldn't find the time to griev for Tara, but COULD find the time to chortle over the rest of the season?

Maskoman

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 21

(05/22/02 09:42:47)

I thought that scene was more disturbing because they were ignoring the uberwitch in the next room than because they werent crying for Tara.

Your friendly neighborhood

Maskoman

ShoeHornOPlenty

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 214

(05/22/02 10:46:34)

After watching the season finale I couldnt help but ask myself "They killed Tara off for this?"

Wow, hey lets kill off a character so that another one can go all evil for a couple episodes, then have her get snapped out of it by the guy who keeps running away from his problems. That will make things oh so worth while.

Somebody has to get the bong away from ME, heck they didnt even have a funeral or anything for Tara, she just got swept under the rug, and got mentioned only a handfull of times in the 2 hour finale.

Whatever it is Joss and Co. are smoking, has to be some pretty good stuff to come up with such garbage.

Ron

Email- natureboy@rogers.com
MSN - Ron_Tough@hotmail.com
ICQ - 41658555
Yahoo - ShoeHornOPlenty3
AIM - ShoeHornOPlenty2

Dark Wyldchilde

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 1722

(05/22/02 10:47:30)

Hush Puppy

That's a point too. What I was refering to more was in the entire episode the humor showed more real emotion then the occasional (BRIEF) mentions of Tara's death. The giggles went on for how long?

Joss may have been upset by killing Tara, but the writing just doesn't show it.

LovePuddle

Re: Bong

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Posts: 391

(05/22/02 10:59:10)

ShoeHornOPlenty....I was reading your post and when I came to the bong part...I almost blew Sprite out of my nose.
Good call. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Funny.....True.....but funny.

saraben

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 424

(05/22/02 11:42:31)

eekdgeek:

Many thanks for this quote. Hugs.

Dark WyldChilde:

Spike right in the heart of the problem - I really believe Joss is still a genius, just the actual writing process hasn't been up to scratch. The individual writers used to write each episode, then Joss would sprinkle the drafts with some magic (Marti Noxon quote along those lines somewhere in that cluttered closet that is my memory). Don't know if they still do that, but my guess is it ain't working like that, these days.

LovePuddle - in case you missed my post about MKF, here's a homage I hope you enjoy:

www.birchenough.com/saras/horsieshead.htm

Hugs

Sara

:flamey

Drop19

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 2083

(05/22/02 12:14:24)

Glad to see Joss sticking up for himself here, even if a lot of the accusations being thrown at him lately seem to be coming more out of emotional reaction than respect for the story. (and I dont necessarily mean in this thread or this board) I really believe him when he says it "hurt" him to kill the character of Tara, and I understand why this was the biggest sign that he had to do it. Looking back at things like killing off Jenny Calendar or Joyce, turning Angelus evil, breaking off Anya and Xander or Cordy and Xander....Joss knows that not every story has a happy ending, and that sometimes for the sake of the story you have to make sacrifices. Sometimes this will mean a character that the writer loves as well as the audience.

Regarding the laughter scene, I was giggling along with them. Sometimes during a series of events you have to have a moment of levity to break the tension. Sometimes, even if it's just for a moment, you need some laughter just to make you feel a bit better, even if you are still in the middle of big trouble.

Have you hugged your mutant enemy today?

quixp2

Re: Joss seem to have not got it....

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Posts: 711

(05/22/02 12:50:44)

Margaret Bet

I've read in many interviews with Joss that he loves Amber and thinks she is an amazing actress and person. He's stated many times that having a lesbian couple on tv was a big step for any show and that Amber and Aly are amazing together. I'm glad to see that as Drop19 said he "stuck up for himself" to do what he did to progress a show in a direction that was best for the show shows courage. People sometimes think that it's about the Actor/Actress. It's not that simple, I believe that this desion made him physically ill. He has praised Amber up and down since she joined the show.He supported her when she was doing her movie. I mean she has only been a recurring charater. Yes this was her choice. Joss didn't have to develope her charater as much as he did. Most shows don't do that for recurring charaters, so this to me proves that to him Amber was more to Buffy than a part time actress. I for one support Joss in what he has done. he still drew me in to the show even with the absence of Amber. A friend said to me the other day, and she knows who she is. Why is it that I began watching the show in the first place. Probably because of the core Scooby gang. Well their still there and I still love them. Would I be a true Buffy fan if I stopped watching because they killed someone off that I loved. If so I should have stopped when they killed Jenni off. I'll support Amber if she comes back or not. I know that there will be other projects that Amber will shine in and I for one can't wait to see her talent showcased in other areas. I'm greatful for the 2 and half years that Amber gave us on Buffy protraying an amazing charater no will ever compare to Tara in Willow's life and I will miss her pressence.

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger.

Unregistered(d)

Drop19--Right on! Joss definitely got it.

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Posts: 0

(05/22/02 16:26:58)

I was laughing like a lunatic as well--laughter is such a (cheeseball metaphor coming--you've been warned!) light in the darkest moments. Sometimes, it's the only thing to keep us from going stark raving mad with grief, fear, whatever...of course you can feel like you're going nuts laughing at these times, but it's alllllll about balance, eh?

And Joss is the bomb of all time because he gets it, and isn't afraid to show us the unhappy endings that happen every day. Killing Tara was perfect because it is so awful--I'll miss Amber Benson's presence, and the Tara/Willow story; but we are so lucky to have seen this on prime-time!

Nemo

Re: Drop19--Right on! Joss definitely got it.

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Posts: 124

(05/22/02 16:59:57)

I know we haven't had this ep yet... but I feel almost like I have seen it by living vicariously thru you americans who are so far ahead of us.... Of course I've read the wildfeeds... of course I've looked at screen caps...

IMHO Tara dying was such a wonderful piece of plotwork... nothing else could have wrenched our emotions in the way that it did. BUT... it was NOT what I would call a wonderful piece of scriptwork. It WAS glossed over too lightly, and it WAS used more as a tool to point us towards the *evil magick willow* than a standalone twist within itself.

I don't know if anyone in here watches ER... but I am sure you are far ahead of us in that also. Over here Mark Green has just been told he has 2 months to live... he's a character who goes way back, who watchers of the show (whether regular or sporadic) have loved, related to, watched grow and sttruggle through life. And now he's dying. BUT OH MY LORD THE DRAMA IS AMAZING! I'm prepared to let him go because he's going out kicking and screaming, as are those around him. They hate it, we hate it, but the scriptwork and the character development is overwhelming.... Where is the drama and the character showings resulting from tara's death?!?!?!

Maybe I'm being premature... maye its coming next season?!?!? But can I wait that long for closure?!?!?!?!???!.........

____________________
Tara: What? W-what are they looking at?
Willow: The hotness of you, doofus.
_____________________

Dark Wyldchilde

Re: Drop19--Right on! Joss definitely got it.

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Posts: 1722

(05/22/02 20:11:55)

Hush Puppy

That brings up another point. They brought Willow and Tara back together ONE show before, just one. I mean there's only two explanations I can think of for that.

#1. Amber was busy, she was only part time and if schedule conflicts came up I can respect that.

#2. Mutant Enemy is jerking us around. Since we heard about the love scene for several months I have to say I think this is the most likely option.

They wanted to make her death as painful for possible for everyone. So instead of having Tara and Willow reunite a couple of episodes early and have a few shows of joy they bring them together and then permanantly tear them apart.

Morethi

Burned Out

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Posts: 43

(05/23/02 05:10:27)

Well, I guess that is that then. I find myself feeling very sad though, perhaps I am a bit silly, but I am still extremly upset about Tara, hurts in the gut upset. At this point it just feels like to much pain to deal with. The guy is the creator, he is God there, so it is really over, and I really don't understand. This is just a wee bit much distress for a TV show, at least at this point.

So, I am burned out, crispy fried, and need to get away from this, at least for now. Again I feel silly being so upset about this, but it is just resonating on a personal level I guess.

~Morethi

"Not all those who wander are lost."--J.R.R. Tolkien

Dark Wyldchilde

Re: Burned Out

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Posts: 1722

(05/23/02 05:23:22)

Hush Puppy

Morethi, let me share some thoughts I had when I was going to meet Eliza (trust me, they are relevant). When I left to go there I got there four and a half hours early. Not jsut because I wanted to be one of the first, but I wanted to be THE first.

Seems silly doesn't it? Not to me (obviously). People talk about being excited about life, embracing that inner child, etc, but when it comes down to it they are afraid of looking silly, or lame or what all else.

Where it comes down to it is that I was that excited that she was coming to town that I wanted to go all out. I didn't do any less because I was too excited to do any less. Some people on occasion looked at me funny, but the majority got excited for me.

And that's how it is. Sure some people will look at you strange, but when you embrace the things you are passionate about (with out hurting anybody) your living the life everyone wants on one level or another.

Eliza understood that and she said to me that day. "Go big or go home."

I'll say to you now. "And if others have trouble with that it's their problem, not yours."

LovePuddle

Re: Burned Out

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Posts: 391

(05/23/02 05:28:04)

Drop19.....has Buffy ever had a happy ending??
If it has....It's few and far between. I mean I know they live on a HellMouth but come on..... Does everything have to be sad or end bad most of the time just for plot's sake.

O.K. Make a list of all the Bad things that have happened....then all the Good....and see which list is longer.

saraben

Re: Burned Out

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Posts: 424

(05/23/02 09:53:41)

Hi Morethi,

Felt exactly the same, but couldn't stay away, after all. It's a lot better to be here with our friends... :sunshine

there's a lot of good things being said.

Love from your gay friend, Sara

:flamey

Drop19

Re: Burned Out

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Posts: 2083

(05/23/02 12:30:28)

Love Puddle: No, in fact there have been virtually no happy endings in Sunnydale (or Los Angeles for that matter). We've had happy moments as well as some incredibly tragic moments in the past 6 years. While this was the (possible) end of Tara's story, Willow's story still has a ways to go. There is nothing to say that when the series ends that we won't see Willow at peace with herself and her problems with magic, in a mature and healthy relationship, and living her life to honor the memory of her lost love every single day.

Being a fan of BtVS (or Angel) is very tough, as Joss just has that Antigone curse. "Everything I touch turns to dust." He has crafted some amazing and beautiful characters that it's an honor to witness week in, week out. Sometimes the trials he puts these characters through is painful, but it resembles the trials we all go through, as well as those of our loved ones who we often have to bear witness to. Life is full of moments both wonderfully joyous and full of despair, yet how we react to these events and overcoming the moments of despair is what truly gives us strength.

Maybe I'm just a masochist, but this is why I can barely watch the BtVS film yet watch the television series near-obsessively. If the series was constantly light-hearted and the troubles these characters faced was trivial I wouldn't care about any of the characters. In the past two weeks I've cried tears of sadness at Tara's death and tears of happiness at Buffy and Dawn's reconciliation. In both cases it was tears of catharsis, as Joss and company have presented a story that has moved me on a personal level. If she never appears again, I'm going to miss the character of Tara a lot. But I appreciate Joss and ME having the guts to tell a story that might move a viewer to sadness as well as making them happy.

Have you hugged your mutant enemy today?

saraben

Re: Burned Out

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Posts: 424

(05/23/02 13:07:13)

Hi Abe,

(In Oz voice): "Agreed."

Ain't masochism - it's appreciating the depth and humanity of BTVS. Love hurts. Who'd choose comfort over love?

I'll forever miss Tara - lets honor her memory by honoring BTVS as the great story-telling that it is.

Love to you,

Sara

:flamey

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