Episode Discussion: Empty Places

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Hades Thanatos Kane	Episode Discussion: Empty Places	Lead	[-]
Posts: 719 (04/25/03 20:18:15) Margaret Bet Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Tuesday, April 29, 8PM ET/PT "Empty Places" Faith decides to take the young women out for the night to blow off some steam, which leads to a startling development. -------------------------------------- Its tempting to try to find it on Kazaa and watch it... after having to download the last one to watch it... its rather tempting. Hehe, I'd probably do it if I had a decent internet connection. Glad to see that, apparantly, Faith is getting some major screen time. Honestly at this point, I'm thiniking the less Buffy, the better. She's been getting on my nerves... Some small part of me wouldn't actually mind if she's dies again. Third time's a charm, right? Anyway, haven't seen the episode yet, and probably won't look back at this thread until I do since there will be probably be spoilers :P -Joseph
Drop19	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#1	[-]
Posts: 2083 (04/28/03 21:06:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just in case... s p o i l e r s "When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you." Has the prophecy been fulfilled? I haven't been a big fan of the two prior Greenberg eps this season, but this was a big step up. There was a lot of great humor mixed into the episode as well as a few decent fight scenes and tense moments. For a "middle" episode this is one of the better ones. -I'm glad the Police thing was explained away as being Hellmouthy. Otherwise it would've seemed way too harsh. Loved the Interpol bit. -The scene with Willow and Xander at the hospital was exceptionally well done. It shows how deep their friendship runs and sets the stage for the events at the end of the episode. -After seeing the Anya/Andrew briefing I'm not so sure I can blame Buffy for rushing back home. Andrew should write on the board every episode. -Other than the underage drinking bit (sigh) I like that Faith is trying to be more understanding of the SITs. Interesting that she sees them as individuals where Buffy sees them as tools or weapons. -I dug the scene with Wood and Faith also. Those characters seem like an interesting match (not necessarily as a ship, just as far as interaction) and I'd like to see more of it. Really I'm having a lot less trouble with the more mellowed out Faith now. Before she could've rotted for all I cared, but I can somewhat believe that she is truly interested in doing good now. -The motorcycle scene was beyond priceless. Andrew looked too cute in the football helmet. And onion petals? Just too brilliant. -Nathan Fillion rocks so hard. The one thing this episode needed was more Caleb! (Okay so it's a Riley smiley, but it looks like Mal) -I'm kind of bummed that Giles wasn't harder on Buffy than what we saw. I think he realized it was more important for the group to show their reluctance rather than doing it alone. -That said, the last scene was really nicely done. You just knew that Xander was going to have one of the last statements to make and building up to it was just evilly angsty. I didn't see it coming for Dawn to be the last one to make a statement though. Did Dawn say this because of Joyce's prophetic statement or was it simply what she felt was best? -With Buffy walking away now there is a lot of interesting possibility for the next few eps. Was this a part of the First's masterplan, manipulating events to get Buffy out of the picture? Will we have a week or two with no Buffy before the big blowout finale? Can't hardly wait to see the preview for next week's episode. Well you're in your little room and you're working on something good, but if it's really good you're gonna need a bigger room.
franca284	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#2	[-]
Posts: 594 (04/29/03 01:06:28) Full of Grace Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I really, really liked this ep Faith was great, Willow and Xander were so cute, and (annoying) Buffy had to leave.....I love it ! cant wait to see what happens next.... Faith as the new leader of the SITs and Buffy all alone... what will Spike think of all this ? Franca EVE: She wants to kill Gurkhan. For you or me that might have been an interesting challenge at one time, but for her..." XENA: "Its a suicide mission." EVE: "She doesnt have what it takes to kill in cold blood ... Do you think I inherited that talent from you mother?" ....
tasha	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#3	[-]
Posts: 3119 (04/29/03 01:12:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Agreeing with pretty much everything the Dropster said. Great episode...didn't see the extremeness of the ending coming. In fact...there's not a whole lot I can add that wouldn't be repeating Drop. The X/W scene in the hospital - helloooo tissues. I wonder who the plaque in the church referred to - Buffy or Faith. Funny - since Season 6, I've been wanting someone to stand up to Buffy and give her the kick up the ass to bring her back down to earth and back down to the Buffy who really cared about the people behind her. I just didn't expect it to play out quite like this. I mean - leaving the house? They only just got Faith along to help out as a strong fighter and now they're back to having one. Not even one alone can stand up to Caleb. (I cannot express how much I think Nathan Fillion rocks) For a while there I thought that maybe it was FE Buffy trying to get them all to walk into their doom again. But it wasn't. Like drop said - is this what he wanted? Or is this the opposite of what he wanted? Three to go. ++ "Confused, maybe - never scared." ++ "...kittens! Which, by the way, is stupid currency" ++ Minion of Ultimate Drew #98
Drop19	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#4	[-]
Posts: 2083 (04/29/03 05:18:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Eeeek, I didn't mean to take up so much to say. Next time I'll try to be more laconic! The way I'm thinking this could throw a major kink in the First/Caleb's plans. He was talking about a need to give Buffy one more nudge to manipulate her further into bad action. Was the nudge related to getting Buffy out or is this just coincidence? During that last scene I was trying to pay a lot of attention to "Is there anybody who hasn't touched someone?" just in case the First had an agent there. I feel so dirty for thinking that thought though. :-P 'Yes...this is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... this land.' 'I think we should call it your grave!' 'Ah! Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!' 'Hahaha! Mine is an evil laugh!'
Little Willow	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#5	[-]
Posts: 17692 (04/29/03 15:41:42) Miss Kitty Fantastico Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bumping this thread up since it airs nationally this evening. Rock the Rock Creations \| Your Girl \| Slayground.net Amber + board \| Golden + board \| Danny + board \| Eliza + board
X mass	downloading off kaza	#6	[-]
Posts: 12 (04/29/03 16:43:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	have u tried getting it as a torrent instead?
The Rose	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#7	[-]
Posts: 360 (04/29/03 18:01:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sigh The Willow/Xander scenes were good. I will keep my opinions on the rest of this ep to myself. Don't want to get into another argument. Tara: My heart doesn't stutter. Tara: Willow, I got so lost. Willow: I found you. I will always find you. Tara: Nobody messes with MY girl! Willow(About Tara): We should have been forever.
gentleman spike	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#8	[-]
Posts: 2317 (04/29/03 20:15:42) Bridge to Tarabithia Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The mystery of the Onion flower thing explained.... and if Andrew tells anyone they had that conversation, Spike will bite him...again... I never thought I'd see it...but Faith..doing the research. The Willow and Xander scenes were touching.
tanngjost	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#9	[-]
Posts: 1023 (04/29/03 20:53:41) Batgirl Buddy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Willow/Xander scene was great. I assume that Clems You rock statement on the street was a nod the Amber and the Amberholics. Spike and Andrew did say they were going to Gilroy right? I know there was something up with that town. As for the rest Ill take my queue from The Rose and not start trouble.
Hades Thanatos Kane	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#10	[-]
Posts: 719 (04/29/03 20:55:54) Margaret Bet Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I really enjoyed this episode... I expected more action, but the drama at the end delivered. It seemed to have gone by way to fast for me, though. I'm glad to see Willow's devotion to Xander, for one thing. Glad I'm not the only one who... A) Thought it was the First-Buffy trying to get them all killed. and B) Was trying to spot The First in the midst of all of the people gathered to see if maybe it had a hand in it all. What I'm hoping for is that everyone, at some point, realizes that Faith is the true, active Slayer. Buffy is the mistake, not Faith. Had Faith been the mistake, then she would have never been called when Kendra died. It wasn't Buffy dying that called Faith. If Faith dies? Another Slayer will be called. Honestly, I think the only reason The First hasn't had Buffy killed yet is that her still being alive is what is messing up the chain or link or whatever... and of course if Faith is killed, another will be called. I'm hoping that plaque is for Faith... maybe Buffy will try it and it won't work, and everyone will be confused, then when Faith tries it, it'll work and everyone will all be liked "Duh! Faith is the slayer!" It just annoys me. I like how Faith is, so far, looking to be a better leader than Buffy, and I like how Buffy actually passed the torch to Faith. How ironic would it all be if Faith turned out to actually be evil still and working for the first? Like she had an evil "conversion" experience in Jail? I highly doubt it, but you never know.... I like this twist in the story. I'm still half expecting Buffy to end up evil some how. -Joseph
Little Willow	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#11	[-]
Posts: 17692 (04/29/03 21:29:07) Miss Kitty Fantastico Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The lengthy review that you are all used to will have to wait until the weekend. I have a long day ahead of me tomorrow, so I'm forcing myself to go to sleep shortly. I will not be online tomorrow. Thus I'll just say a few quick things right now: * I screamed out of sheer joy when Buffy looked at the old photograph of Buffy, Willow and Xander. That picture not only represented who she should be talking to - and who she had just walked away from in the hospital, but what the show was - and how the core characters NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON now more than ever. * There are only three episodes left: Touched, End of Days and Chosen. There is no longer time to waste. There is no longer time for filler episodes, throwaway scenes, things left unsaid. It's time to not only go to war and see good versus evil, but for the characters to matter to each other, to come back together, to have some semblance of togetherness, friendship and loyalty, to remember where they've been and to find out where they are going. I need the Core Four - Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles - to regroup. I need character actions - gains, losses, deaths, rebirths - to matter. * In a sentence, I am extremely anti-smoking. Not only that, but Faith should not smoke in this episode. She never ever smoked in BtVS S3, BtVS S4, Angel S1, Angel S2, Angel S4. Why did they make her smoke tonight and in the previous episode? One of the best things they did for Faith in BtVS S3 was that she didn't have any stereotypical bad girl habits; she didn't drink, she didn't smoke, she didn't do drugs. Instead, the things she did were worse and different, because she was a Slayer and because it was this show. * High point: Faith dancing. * High point: Willow and Xander in the hospital. More this weekend. Little Willow Rock the Rock Creations \| Your Girl \| Slayground.net Amber + board \| Golden + board \| Danny + board \| Eliza + board
tanngjost	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#12	[-]
Posts: 1023 (04/29/03 23:14:39) Batgirl Buddy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just a thought about who her might be. I could be Jasmine from Angle if they continue with the crossovers.
jesslynn	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#13	[-]
Posts: 245 (04/30/03 05:01:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	LW: Maybe it's something she picked up in prison? (Although I doubt Faith would smoke such a valuable commodity.) Otherwise, I'm not sure why, other than the cheap visual joke of Buffy coming down and seeing Spike and Faith next to each other on the bed . . . smoking. I missed this episode, so I can't contribute much else, I'm afraid.
wiccavixen	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#14	[-]
Posts: 1857 (04/30/03 06:30:48) Sunny Bail Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	eh, i liked buffy last night in a way...i cried when they all turned on her, but i could see their points...she's very reckless now, she's not seeing the BIG picture....going back to that cellar would be suicide...they don't know what they are up against, buffy is going blindly on her gut instinct, which granted has always worked in the past, but buffy's lost it, she's stumbling around blindly, hell bent on killing caleb and worried about spike, hell she hasn't even bothered to learn the names of the potentials really, and she calls this a TEAM?? the scooby gang has always worked because they not only fought a common enemy, but they stood on common ground, they were friends, they were a family, that made it work, that made them win, but thats gone, she can't see out of her own problems now, and faith can.... i've always thought faith had potential, but no one EVER gave her the chance, she's always been disregarded, cast in buffy's shadow, and now she's the front man, the one in charge, and personally i think she will rise to the ocassion and prove how worthy she really is...this is her time to shine the hospital scenes...sigh so nice to see the old willow/xander interaction... andrew and spikes passion for the blooming onion....LMAO!!! anya and her breakup sex story..andrew writing it down on the board, the SiT's moving off the bed quickly...OMG too funny!!! and last but not least..... CLEM!!! driving a VW bug...and he threw goats!!! clem threw goats!!! THAT FREAKIN ROCKS!!!!!!! "I'm sort of the slacker. I don't really do anything. Im a conscientious objector in the game of life"- Chance "Dude, I have an action figure??" - Amber Benson "...When the magick was all 'ahhhh' and I was all 'eeeeee' and everything was all 'grrrrrr' - Willow "You two are the two who are the two, I'm the other one." -Willow
Little Willow	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#15	[-]
Posts: 17692 (04/30/03 11:48:59) Miss Kitty Fantastico Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is brief and should be more detailed, but I have approximately two minutes to say this so... here it goes: It should have been a stronger finish. Had it been Buffy's choice, that would have made it stronger, for example. Also, if Dawn had said something to the effect of, "Either let someone else lead, learn to follow, and stay here, with me, with us... or you can't stay here," and then Buffy chose to turn and leave, it could have even tied into Conversations With Dead People - Buffy choosing to leave instead of staying with Dawn and the others, ie not choosing Dawn. When I first learned that Buffy was going to be thrown out of the house, I learned just that fact - without details, without specifics, without the how or who or why. Thus I figured that perhaps they realized The First could take on the guise of Buffy, and that she would have to be somewhere else safe either by herself or with one or two chosen guardians/friends, to ensure that if The First came into the Summers home looking like Buffy, everyone would know it wasn't her. That way, they wouldn't have a replay of the confusion of Intervention, and that way, no friend or SIT would be led astray / to suicide / to certain death / to capture by The First as Faux Buffy. Instead, to have Buffy be sent away not because she is the Slayer, not because she died and because the First can look like her, but because she is BUFFY - because of the personal decisions and choices the girl made - is a bolder, more personal, more shocking direction to take. I only wish it had been written better. Rock the Rock Creations \| Your Girl \| Slayground.net Amber + board \| Golden + board \| Danny + board \| Eliza + board
Hades Thanatos Kane	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#16	[-]
Posts: 719 (04/30/03 12:38:58) Margaret Bet Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh, I forgot to add... Buffy finally got what she deserved. I've been so tired of her holier than thou attitude for the past 2 seasons (this one included) and her empty speeches that she admitted were just BS... Had she been honest and up-front from the beginning, and been more of a leader instead of the blind leading the blind, then this wouldn't have happened. Personally? I wasn't saddened at all by everyone "turning on her" but quite the opposite... it gave me satisfaction. I'm very interested to see where this is all leading. -Joseph
lostnfound1	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#17	[-]
Posts: 657 (04/30/03 12:57:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've always been amazed at the shows ability to slide effortlessly from gut-wrenching drama to side-splitting comedy,and back again.The scenes with Willow and Xander at the hospital were heartbreaking,and the Spike/Andrew interaction had me laughing out loud.The ending left me with mixed emotions,however.I guess I'm one of the few people who still likes Buffy at this point,and who sympathizes with what she's going through.Something about those last scenes in the house just didn't ring true to me.I know we're suppose to think that Buffy's decision to return to the vineyard is born out of the frustration,anger,and guilt she's feeling over how badly things went the first time,but it's such an astoundingly bad idea that I just don't buy it.Buffy's gone on instinct before,but her instincts have never led her to do anything close to this foolish.It just seemed out of character.And the response of the others seemed equally out of character to me.I can understand them disagreeing with her plan,I can even understand them refusing to participate.But essentially asking her to leave her own home,basically telling her they didn't need her anymore? When Anya said to Buffy that she's not better than the rest of them,just luckier,I couldn't help but think,what's so lucky about having to bear the burden of being the world's protector.Was Buffy lucky when she had to kill the man she loved to save the world?Was she lucky when she sacrificed her life to save her sister,and the world,yet again?Virtually everyone in that house owes their life to Buffy.Xander,Willow,Giles,Anya,Dawn,they all have been saved by her time and time again.Yet when she needs them the most,they abandon her?Anya may be right about Buffy being giving her power,rather than having earned it,but over the last seven years she has proven time and time again to be worthy of that gift.I would be shocked if the message Spike read referred to anyone but Buffy.She's the hero of this story,always has been,and I believe she will be again.For the writers to take the show in any other direction at this late date,to make Faith or someone else the ultimate hero of this story,would render everything that has come before irrelevant. And that,gentle readers,is my humble opinion. Paul
Hades Thanatos Kane	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#18	[-]
Posts: 719 (04/30/03 13:10:47) Margaret Bet Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You made a lot of good points, but I just feel that Buffy has grown quite arrogant. She has a lot of reasons to be hurt by everyone abandoning her, and until Buffy actually touched something, I was almost convinced it was The First because wanting to rush back into the Vineyard was so out of character and careless. I can see everyone else's reaction, though... they are probably tired of her attitude. She has proved worthy of that power, whereas Faith has proved nothing. Yet I do see a lot of sense in what Anya had to say... not necessarily luckier, but Buffy really has acted better than everyone because she is the one with the power. She flat out refused the idea of someone else taking the lead. Her attitude right there said that she thinks no one else could possibly do better than what she is doing. She didn't even consider the notion of letting someone else make the plans. "I'll agree to talk strategy" and yada yada... She's asking everyone to go get themselves killed and not even giving them a choice. Its not like she's telling them what they are having for dinner, she is telling them to go get themselves killed. Until she gets a major attitude adjustment, which I think she will, I still really can't stand her. I think in the next episode or two, Buffy will realize what everyone was saying has some truth to it, and she'll end up being the shiney hero all over again. But for now, she isn't acting like a hero, she's acting like a spoiled leader who has grown far to used to her position. -Joseph
The Rose	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#19	[-]
Posts: 360 (04/30/03 17:52:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	LW, I get the impression you are not too happy with this episode. I said what I thought was good into this ep, and it isn't much. HTK, Buffy hasn't been acting like a hero since season five, and I have lost all respect for her. I don't think she deserves to be thrown out of her own house though. Buffy jumps off of a tower to save Dawn's life, and Dawn completely betrays her. I am also really disapppointed in The Scoobies because Buffy has saved them time and time again( Well, I guess I still have a little respect for her) Honestly, I don't think Faith is the right person to lead because she does not have the discipline Buffy does. Tara: My heart doesn't stutter. Tara: Willow, I got so lost. Willow: I found you. I will always find you. Tara: Nobody messes with MY girl! Willow(About Tara): We should have been forever.
audra	Re: Episode Discussion: Empty Places	#20	[-]
Posts: 377 (04/30/03 20:04:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have mixed feelings about this episode. Well, as far as my emotions go. LW: I also figured that the smoking was just something she picked up in prison. As stereotypical as that may be. I loved the hospital scene with Willow and Xander. I like how at first they made jokes about it before Willow almost lost it. I enjoyed the exchange between Faith and Wood about being able to read people. And Buffy's face when he took Faith's side. I liked Anya's "you're not better than us speech." I'm glad they all said something to Buffy about her attitude, but I'm not glad she was kicked out of her own house. Well, Dawn's house too. I'd have been all "look you little ball of energy." I'm glad Buffy didn't fight it at the end, but helped Faith to see that she must lead them. You know, Faith's always been like they don't really need me cause they've got Buffy. Well, what if they didn't? She needs to learn the responsibility and her role as the Slayer. Not just a girl who also has the Slayer powers. But I do agree with the person who said that it's been Buffy's story. She's the hero. I hope it ends that way. Audra "Tell me if you feel, like I feel When we touch, does a fire build Down in your soul, burnin' out of control Tell me tonight"

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